Before ‘Matlock,’ Kathy Bates worried her career was ‘drying up’

In the latest episode of The Envelope video podcast, Kathy Bates discusses starring in a hit TV series at 77 with “Matlock,” and Jason Segel explains why he finds the emotional vulnerability of “Shrinking” so creatively fulfilling.

Mark Olsen: For the Los Angeles Times, I’m Mark Olsen. Welcome to The Envelope podcast. I’m here today with my co-host and colleague, Yvonne Villarreal. Our other co-host, Kelvin Washington, is out sick today. He sends his regards. He’ll be back soon. And now, Yvonne, we sort of broke format for your interview this week. Tell me about what happened with your encounter with Kathy Bates.

Yvonne Villarreal: Well, Mark, you know I love a good home tour. We talk about Architectural Digest a lot. We send each other links — just FYI. So we got to visit Kathy Bates’ home for this. And it was everything I hoped for. The kitchen is on my Pinterest board. Her dog joined us during the interview. It was everything that I could ask for. And it’s Kathy Bates. She’s this legend of film and TV. You know her from “Misery,” “Dolores Claiborne,” “Fried Green Tomatoes,” “The Office.” But now she’s on “Matlock,” which has earned her an Emmy nomination for lead actress in a drama. And it’s this remake of this classic sort of procedural of network TV, where she plays a septuagenarian trying to reenter the workforce. And by end of the first episode at least — and I hope I’m not spoiling anything — we learned that there’s an ulterior motive here, which is her daughter has died from opioid use and she believes that the Chicago law firm where she now works is sort of responsible for the cover-up. So it was really lovely talking to her about identifying with this character that she’s playing and this idea of still having something left in you at this later stage in life and [that] there’s more to give. So it’s really nice talking to her. Tell me about Jason Segel.

Olsen: Well, Jason came down here to our studios in El Segundo, and it’s funny, because I had not quite processed that he has been like a major television star now for the better part of 20 years. You know, when “How I Met Your Mother” ended in 2014 — let that sink in for a second — he, at first, kind of was a little bit lost. He seemed like he didn’t know if he wanted to do comedies. He was trying to do more dramas. And then with his new show “Shrinking,” which he co-created, is an executive producer and stars in, he has found this real sweet spot of the sort of doing comedy, doing drama, but with this sense of like real vulnerability and an emotional heart that even [for] all of them on the show, it’s been unexpected to them how much it’s come to sort of mean to other people and the response that they’ve gotten from audiences. And the show in part was created so that it could be shot around Pasadena, where Jason lives, like very close to his home. It was like a scheduling thing. And it was actually quite fun in the course of our conversation, he explained a little bit about why he recently proposed to his fiancée at the Huntington Library and Gardens in San Marino, which is a place I spend a lot of time and enjoy very much.

Villarreal: I love going there. Did he say exactly where he did it on the grounds?

Olsen: There’s some photos that you can find online: In the Rose Garden, of course.

Villarreal: Well, I’m very excited to listen to that.

Olsen: And with that, let’s get to your conversation with Kathy Bates.

Kathy Bates in “Matlock.”

(Brooke Palmer / CBS)

Villarreal: Ms. Bates, thank you so much for having us.

Bates: Oh, it’s a pleasure.

Villarreal: We’re in your home. It’s beautiful. I was trying to figure out if I could find the Oscar. It’s like, Where’s Waldo?

Bates: All those [are] tucked away somewhere, although I was told when I won one that you couldn’t have it replaced if something happened, but now I think you can and for a bad reason — I think because of the Palisades fire. So many people [in the industry] have lost [them]. When you hold it, I think the gold starts to tarnish, so he’s tucked away.

Villarreal: Do you hold it often? Do you find that you come and look at [your awards]?

Bates: No. [But] you know what? I think I should just haul it out and enjoy it, right?

Villarreal: Have breakfast with it.

Bates: That would be great. I never thought of that. Maybe I should. Or Champagne or a glass of rosé.

Villarreal: Do you watch much TV? You could have it by your side.

Bates: Oh, I watch a great deal of TV. I love to watch everything. This year I’ve watched “The Pitt.” What was the one Keri Russell was in? “The Diplomat.” I loved that. “Adolescence,” of course. And I love to watch them over and over and over again, not because I’m an obsessive fan, but because I like to watch the actors. And especially the — well, they’re all young compared to me — but I like to watch how the craft has evolved with them; then I think, OK, I need to get that.

Villarreal: I could see you on “The Pitt.” What did you love about “The Pitt”?

Bates: I loved all of it. I loved it. I’m a fan of Noah Wyle’s. He and I share drivers sometimes. And sometimes I win, and sometimes he wins. [The driver’s] a great guy, Dylan. So we pass information back and forth every now and then. So just to see how wonderful it is — all the actors and all of the guests, even tiny little roles were wonderful — I’m very happy for him.

Villarreal: There’s another show that’s very good, and that is “Matlock.” You’re so familiar with the awards circuit, Ms. Bates. I mean, you have the Oscar. You have Golden Globes. You have [Screen Actors Guild] awards. You have Emmys. But what would it mean to you to win an Emmy for this performance as Madeline Matlock at this stage in your career?

Bates: It would mean the world to me. And it would mean the world me because Jennie Snyder Urman [the creator of the “Matlock” reboot] deserves it, our cast deserves it and our crew. Everybody that’s raised a hammer or a paintbrush deserves it. It’s the loveliest time of my life, and I would love to have it celebrated in that way, but mainly because I think the show deserves it and it would be great to have the Emmy and walk in. Then I would share. And we would all have Champagne or something. It would be great.

Villarreal: Before “Matlock,” how would you describe the place you were at in your career? Were roles that intrigued you still in steady supply, or had you seen that change?

Bates: I’ve had the opportunity to work with wonderful people like Nicole Kidman and Maggie Smith, but often the roles were small or they didn’t challenge me or, in some cases, the films didn’t turn out as I had hoped, or they did not reach a wider audience. And I was just wondering, “Is this drying up?” And I was considering going into retirement. I thought, “Wow, what’s gonna happen next? Is this gonna be a decision I’m gonna have to make?” And then all of a sudden I got the call from my agent and they said, “You have to read it now and make a decision by Monday.” I read it and I was like, “Oh, yeah, this is good. This means something.” Then I had my meeting with Jennie that Monday morning. We met at the Four Seasons, tucked away in a booth in a corner, and I liked her right away, and we jumped in. I had a gazillion questions for her.

Villarreal: I heard about the questions. Did you have them printed out?

Bates: I put everything in my Notes app. Like: What is this going to be? Where is it going to go? How is it gonna turn out? And [wanted assurance on] things like, “I want you to stay with me.” Because many times producers will woo you, and then they get involved with the cast and they get involved in the larger aspects of production, and you don’t have that collaboration.

Villarreal: Were you a “Matlock” viewer?

Bates: No. I think when that was going on, I was doing theater in New York. I wasn’t watching TV.

Villarreal: Fair enough. It’s a big job being the lead of a broadcast drama. Are there ways you have learned how to take care of yourself after doing 19 episodes? I’m sure there will be more this season. How do you make sure you’re OK leading the ship?

Bates: First of all, I have a great group of people around me. I have a wonderful assistant named Erica LeBlanc, and she’s sensational. And even my makeup and hair [team], Romy [Fleming] and Kim [Greene], and my driver, Beth [Johnson]. It’s a great group of women that are around me. The people that are producing it — [Paramount/CBS bosses] George Cheeks and Amy Reisenbach and David Stapf, and Eric Olsen [the founder of Cloud Nine, one of the production companies behind the series] — they’re also supportive, and I feel they’re holding me. But what you’re asking, I think, is more about health and all that. I really try hard to get sleep. Because I read that early morning call, it’s like, “Oh, God, please don’t get me up at 5 o’clock. I’m not used to that.”

Villarreal: Do you have your routine?

Bates: I study a lot. I use an app called Scriptation, which is really helpful. I’m kind of anal about how I choose the colors and how I highlight everything. And then Erica and I share them. And Jennie gives us tone meetings. I went to one the other day, and a friend of mine was there, my oldest friend in the world. He came out for my birthday. He was invited, and he said that the way she conducts the tone meetings, she kind of jumps up on her chair, and it’s sort of like watching Leonard Bernstein conduct. But we have the tone notes that I have specifically for each scene where Matty is in her arc, so we print those up and we put them in my script, or I print up other things like photographs that I’m inspired by. And I need to eat properly. My doctor wants me on a plant-based diet, and Stephen Faust, who’s our caterer, always makes sure I have what I need. They’re just taking great care of me. They really, really are and I appreciate it. I really do. The studio, everybody — I could name more and more names.

Villarreal: You’re not scrolling TikTok for hours before bed.

Bates: I’m not allowed to.

Villarreal: Have you tried?

Bates: No, I’m not allowed to have TikTok, or what’s the other one — Snapchat? No. Or [Chat]GPT or any of that stuff. I’m allowed to go to Reddit, which I could get on by myself if I wanted to. Linda, my niece, who is like my mainstay, she’s the captain of my ship, and she’s laid down the law. She knows me. We’ve been together for — oh, we had an anniversary — [since] 1994, we’ve worked together. So she just says, “No.” Every now and then she’ll give me a couple of tidbits from Reddit.

Villarreal: What are you reading on Reddit? What do you like?

Bates: Well, I love compliments.

Villarreal: I thought you meant like rabbit holes of conspiracy theories.

Bates: Oh, oh, oh. I think back in the day. But no, I’m very involved in myself right now.

Villarreal: Matty is a crafty septuagenarian reentering the workforce, and what’s great about her is she’s constantly showing us how she’s being underestimated. I’m curious what your experience with that has been like — what’s [a] time in your career where you felt underestimated, and how did you handle it?

Bates: Way, way, way back, I had an opportunity. We came out from Southern Methodist University, and we had a relationship with the [Allan Hancock College] performing arts center up in Santa Maria. And they had a wonderful teacher from Northwestern, Alvina Krause. And she was gonna direct a production of “The Three Sisters” by Chekhov. I was so bad at auditioning — terrible, terrible, terrible. And my acting teacher at Southern Methodist University was sitting next to Alvina, and apparently I came out and did my audition, and she was like, “OK …” And Jack Clay, God rest him, said, “Just give her a chance.” … It was a supportive, exciting moment in my life to [play] an ingenue, which I don’t think I’ve ever done since, and have this wonderful teacher to teach us how to, in that particular case, read everything they would have read at that time — What is the jewelry she’s wearing? What is the music they’re listening to? Will they have to go to a concert? And so all of that background stuff was very important. That was the first time I think I had gotten that. And being underestimated — I think every actor feels when they go into an audition that that’s going to be the moment when they say, “Oh, we’re going with something else or somebody that looks different from you,” the way they put it. You feel underestimated nine times out of 10, and you’ve got to get tough with that and get used to it and know that it’s not personal. But it was hard to do at the beginning. Even when we did “Night, Mother” on Broadway [in 1983], and we didn’t have the opportunity to do the film, which I felt we should have done. We did the play for two years, and it would have been so great to get Anne Pitoniak and myself on film to see what we had created in those two years. And because they went with Sissy Spacek, who I adore, and, God rest her, Anne Bancroft, they underestimated us. If it was today and with independent features, we could have done it.

Villarreal: How do you let that fuel you instead of let it continue to dim your light?

Bates: Just keep doing. It’s the work that I love to do. Yvonne, I don’t know how to really answer that question. I knew from the beginning, from when I was young — I did it in high school, I knew that I had it. But I knew that I had to develop it, my craft and my talent, and it just took such a long time, but I think I always knew that I could do it if I could just get in there and somehow, by the grace of God, I don’t know, I would get another role and that would keep me going for a while. I think I’m just dancing with you right now because I don’t know how to answer this question.

Villarreal: I think it’s one we stay answering, I guess, in our careers, right? There’s never really the answer, maybe.

Bates: How did you do it?

Villarreal: I don’t. I’m so insecure right now.

Bates: Really?

Villarreal: Yeah. You’re Kathy Bates. I’m in your home. Why me?

Bates: Arthur Ashe — that reminds me — was a brilliant tennis player. And he got cancer — you asked yourself, “Why me?” And he said, “I didn’t ask myself, ‘Why me?’ when I was winning all those awards as a tennis player.” We’re human beings. Everybody’s been saying these wonderful things about me, “legend” and “icon” stuff, but I don’t think of myself in that way. I think of myself as an actor, and I’m grateful for the jobs I’ve had over the years. I can’t believe it’s been 50 years. I had moments last season — they were very few — but that I felt in tears at times that I wasn’t able to do the scene. There were days when I was just — I love [the pianist Vladimir Horowitz], and there’s a wonderful recording, they’ve restored it and it’s all in color now, and he’s playing Rachmaninoff, the third piano concerto. And at the beginning of this one that’s been upgraded, he talks about his own work and how he doesn’t always hit it. And to hear someone of that massive talent say that he doesn’t always hit it and that will he do it again that night kind of makes you feel more like one of the club. We’re all artists, and we’re all trying to hit it. And even Dustin Hoffman said that to me — and he’s a pianist as well — you have to hit just the right note. And you’ll see a performance like Daniel Day-Lewis in “Lincoln,” and he comes in and he is Lincoln, no false note ever. And that’s what you aspire to. I haven’t gotten there. I haven’t gotten there, but that’s wonderful because we keep going, and we’re human beings that are trying to do the best we can do at our career and in our lives.

Villarreal: It’s interesting to hear you say you haven’t gotten there. There’s this big moment at the end of the season for Matty where it seems like this mission she’s on is winding down. And she’s nervous about that because she wants to continue to be a lawyer. It’s ignited something in her. She realizes she’s not finished yet with her career. Unpack that scene for me as Kathy Bates.

Bates: There are certainly a lot of parallels between me and Matty. I wonder as I’m getting older: How long will I be able to do this physically, mentally? “Matlock” coming along now, I feel like I’m doing some of the best work I’ve ever done thanks to Jennie’s writing and such a complex character. I certainly wouldn’t be here without it. I don’t know what could come along that would be as wonderful. I wanted to keep going. I just want to enjoy every moment of this because it’s incredibly rare to work with this kind of material, this cast, working with Skye is just a dream.

Villarreal: Skye Marshall plays Olympia.

Bates: Yes, Skye P. Marshall. And the way our love story, [which] Jennie always talks about, evolved as we were working with each scene and with each other, we never talked about things. We just looked into each other’s eyes, and we were those people. We are those people when we work together. And as I was telling you before we started our interview, the day before yesterday, we had our first rehearsal [for Season 2]. I asked Skye, I said, “How are you?” She said, “Scared.” And we were both thinking the same thing because we’ve been doing all of these panels and we’re going, “Oh, great. We’ve got so many viewers, aren’t we wonderful?” And now we get there and we’re going, “Can I do this?”

Villarreal: What do you feel when you perform, and what do you fear about one day when you’re not doing it anymore? It’s something I even ask myself right now because it feels like my industry is in such turmoil, and I feel like I’ll have to hit the end of it before I want to.

Bates: I want to ask you first. I want you to prime the pump.

Villarreal: I love this [talking to people]. I’ll miss the anxiety of trying to meet deadline, even though that sounds weird and my editor’s probably like, “Yeah, right.” But I will miss that creative challenge: “Can I do it?” OK. Now your turn.

Bates: Same thing. Exactly the same thing. Here we are looking in each other’s eyes, really working off of each other, like we will as actors. What are you going to say next? How is that going to affect me? And I have grown to enjoy talking to people like yourself and trying not to know what I’m going to say, or spin, or anything else. That’s the other thing about being my age, and sometimes it’s gotten me in trouble in these interviews because I feel like, “F— it. I just want to say what I mean and mean what I say at my age.” And sometimes I’ve regretted it. Other times, I think, “Why?” That’s the old cliche about elderly people, [that] they finally say, “F— it, I’m just gonna say what I wanna say.” I can’t even remember what we were talking about.

Villarreal: What you’ll miss.

Bates: You know what, and it’s a strange thing for me to say because I’m really a hermit, I think I’m going to miss walking on those soundstages and hearing people and the cacophony of the voices, or the quietness, the smell of it, the laughter that’s coming from somewhere, walking onstage, seeing people from the day before. When you’re beginning and you’re beginning to form relationships with people, sometimes it’s automatic, sometimes it’s gingerly. And I think it’s taught me how to be a more compassionate person who listens more and watches more. I would miss that. Let’s face it, I would miss being the center of attention.

Villarreal: Of course, of course. Who wouldn’t? I’ll still talk about you on Reddit, I promise. What do you remember about your first time on a Hollywood soundstage?

Bates: Oh, I remember the very first was with Miloš Forman, but that wasn’t a speaking role. My speaking role was with Dustin [Hoffman] in [1978’s] “Straight Time.” It was night shoot, I was just inside a kitchen, I was supposed to walk out a door, and I don’t know if it was Gary Busey out there or whatever, and I was in everybody’s way, and I was nervous. I was in this room with a washing machine, and I just had no idea what I was supposed to do. I had no clue. And Dustin was so supportive and so helpful, and I learned a lot from him, and so we were off and running. But boy, I was clueless. Clueless!

Villarreal: It seems fitting that the series brings you back into the legal drama world more than a decade after starring in David E. Kelley’s “Harry’s Law,” which was unceremoniously canceled by NBC, even though it was one of the network’s most-watched shows, because it didn’t attract young viewers. And I remember the hubbub of that, the reader emails. What do you remember about that experience, and what did it teach you about Hollywood?

Bates: Cutthroat. That was my first up-front experience with that. And I don’t want to cast any aspersions on anyone involved with that project. I said what I said on that [Television Critics Assn.] stage — probably should have said it a little more politely, but it’s like Annie Wilkes [her “Misery” character] says, “It’s not fair.” It took me a while to get over it, it really did. And one of my favorite human beings in the world was [co-star] Aml Ameen, he’s like a son to me. And he was left out of the second season. And I felt that the turn they made from being a neighborhood shoe store, with real people, with gang members, with everybody — it was diverse, going into more of a “Boston Legal”-style show, I felt was a mistake. It was less enjoyable for me. So I guess things happen the way they’re supposed to happen. I had an opportunity before that to maybe stay at “The Office.” And I always wondered, the road less taken, what that would have been like. So it was tough. And that was the summer that I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So that the whole thing kind of just went, you know.

Villarreal: How did you deal with that?

Bates: Not well at all. As opposed to the ovarian cancer that I went through in 2003, even though I had to go through chemo and all of that, which wasn’t a happy time — although I was always happy when I got the Russian guy to give me the chemo. I was like, “Oh, is Dmitri gonna be here today?” But somehow, this time with the breast cancer was more painful. Although, you know what’s really interesting, Yvonne? I was in more pain, oddly enough, and I think it was because of some nerves that was going on, which was rectified after a while. But I kept begging my surgeon, “I need more medication.” I needed more medication. And now that I’ve done all this research, I understand why he said no. I owe him a big apology. I owe them, at the very least, a thank-you note because I think that I could very easily have tipped over into opioid use.

Villarreal: Just to veer in a different direction. This fall, it will be the 35th anniversary of “Misery,” which was your first major film screen role. And I would imagine that carries a lot of maybe anxiety or pressure. What do you remember about the work that you put in to prepping for that?

Bates: I learned a big lesson from Rob [Reiner, who directed the film]. Sometimes I can be very literal about things. A book was a big jumping-off place for me. And I said, “Well, what about this? What about that? Doesn’t this need to be in the script?” And he finally said, “We’re not making the book. We’re making a film.” And he said, “It’s different.” But in a way that kind of literal side of me really helped with Annie. A lot of who Annie is, I can totally relate to. Her obsession — sometimes I can obsess about things — or her fascination with a movie star. I shouldn’t say that. I understood her depression. I understood her loneliness. I understood all of these things. So when I went in, it wasn’t so much that I had a lot of notes in my script. In that case, I was able to go in and hang out on the set with everybody and watch how movies are made. And it’s also a way, as Dustin used to say to me, you have to stay plugged in. So it wasn’t that I would go in my trailer and just sit by myself and think about other things. I went and I would plug in and stay plugged in on the set, watch it, be there, feel it, all of it. Because when you’re acting, you take all of that in, whether you’re in the jungle making a movie and you just happen to see something and you go, “Oh!” And that brings something else in you. That’s another thing Dustin told me, just to keep your eyes out, to listen. What’s going on? Who’s shooting? Can you hear this? Can hear that? So that it’s a more outward thing. My teacher at SMU, Ray Burke, taught us to keep a diary and look outside and see how people are living. So that was “Misery” for me. I felt it fit me like a shoe, really.

Villarreal: You can see it, like when you have that tussle with James Caan near the end. So good. You didn’t use stunt doubles, right?

Bates: We did. I had Sammy Thurman. I forget who doubled Jimmy. I’m sure he had a guy that he used for years and years. Sammy, thank God, carried somebody through the snow. It wasn’t me. That was an interesting moment, because that’s the first thing we rehearsed. They took us to a soundstage. It had the house marked out on the floor. Dave Ellis was our stunt coordinator. Maybe it was R.A. Rondell that doubled Jimmy. Great family. Boy, they were all stunt people that were fantastic. And we blocked it out with Dave. The whole thing, the very first thing we ever did. And I was surprised by that. But we knew exactly what we were doing when we got there. And I remember them putting that gel on my arm so I could set my hands [on fire]. Shooting it was all really cool, until he slammed my head into the floor. They put a pad, they changed one of the [panels] in the floor so it looks like the floor but it’s more soft. And it didn’t do much good. It was so upsetting. I really burst into tears afterwards because it was just really horrific.

Villarreal: Before we end things, you’re going to return to directing after more than 20 years. You’ve directed some amazing TV shows — “Six Feet Under,” “NYPD Blue,” “Homicide,” “Everwood.” You’re going to come back and do “Matlock,” the midseason finale. Are you excited to dive back in?

Bates: Yes. I love working with the actors. That’s my favorite part. I’m not great [at] location scouting, and now we’ve got a third stage, so we’re all thinking, “Oh, maybe we don’t have to go out. We can stay in the studio,” which would be great. I’m sure the cast is gonna give me a hard time. I expect that. But one of the things that I felt that was one of my gifts or talents or insights is that I know, because of being an actor, I guess, how to consolidate what I want to have happen and put it into a sentence or a phrase that’s going to unlock something in the actor. And I’m really hoping I still have that.

The other thing I’m excited about is working with the new technology. I mean, we’ve got a guy who’s a focus puller, Stratt, I love him. He’s not running and measuring and doing all this stuff. And he’s been doing it for 35 years. And I walked to him and I said, “What is that?” He said, “Oh, I’m focus pulling.” And I was like, “Oh, God, tell me all about that.” Or working with Chad, our A-camera operator, and looking through the lens. I loved when I was doing “Six Feet Under,” sitting on an apple box underneath the camera and being onstage with everybody. I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to do that because we’ve got a lot of glass at Jacobson Moore. But I really want to do that. The grips at “Six Feet Under” made me an apple box with my name on it and the brass hinges and everything, so I want to take that with me just for good luck, you know, even if I don’t get to use it.

Villarreal: I was at the table read for Season 2, and it was amazing. I know we can’t say too much, but what’s your one-sentence pitch for what’s coming for season 2?

Bates: Dangerous.

Villarreal: I like that. Well, I’m hoping before I make my exit from your wonderful home, if you could just take me into a room and get like a hammer and…

Bates: Ha ha ha!

Villarreal: It’s my dream.

Bates: No, no, no. Didn’t you say you wanted to stay in your business?

Villarreal: Don’t go near my hands.

Bates: No, no, no.

Villarreal: Do you get that request a lot?

Bates: All the time. All the time.

Villarreal: More than Towanda?

Bates: Oh, yes, which isn’t bad. That’s a good one. Every now and then people will refer to “Dolores Claiborne,” but oh, my God, especially men. I remember being on a flight from London, and we were out over the Atlantic, and something was wrong and we had to go back. I just remember one guy, we were all pissed off, and he was in the aisle, and he said something about his ankles, and I was just like, “Ugh.” But anyway, it’s been good to me, so. And I miss Jimmy.

Jason Segel in “Shrinking.”

(Apple TV+)

Mark Olsen: The show is rooted in this sense of vulnerability, of people at times really showing themselves at their worst. What made you interested in exploring that?

Jason Segel: I think that, for me, that’s the thing that’s most interesting about acting, actually about making art in general, is helping people find their way through real-life stuff, sort of as a surrogate. Watching people go through things onscreen or in a song — nothing is more healing than a breakup song. And to make a show about grief is hopefully helpful to people who are going through grief in their own lives.

Olsen: Is it difficult day in, day out to stay in this very sort of fragile emotional place?

Segel: I think the show found me. I’ve been living in a fragile emotional space for 45 years, and me and the show collided at just the right time. I think I’ve always been a little bit tuned, a little tightly wound, around emotions. I feel them maybe a little more pronounced than maybe even is healthy, but I think having art my whole life has been a really helpful way to use that defect.

Olsen: What is your own relationship to therapy? Before the show came up, were you familiar with the vocabulary, the concepts?

Segel: I was. And I do think that in life, learning that it is OK to ask for help is one of the most important lessons you eventually learn, hopefully — that you’re not in this alone. And actually, I think most people are dealing with a pretty similar set of issues. The facts are different, but the emotions are all pretty similar. Loss, grief, love. I think what’s interesting about this show is it’s based on some real therapists, and it is a more innovative version of therapy. A lot of the therapy people have experienced, that I experienced, is someone asking you questions and sort of nodding at your responses. “And how does that make you feel?” This other group of therapists that the show is based on, they understood that the real wish is that someone will tell you what to do. Right? That’s the ultimate cheat code in therapy, is someone saying, “OK, I hear what you’re saying, here’s how you’re gonna handle it. And we’ll figure out why you’re having trouble with it along the way, we’ll do that too, but I’m gonna help you for the thing you’re talking about that’s happening on Tuesday.” And so that was brand new to me, and really exciting and really interesting. And then you layer on top of it that my character, who you kind of enter this world through, is essentially going through a nervous breakdown, is at rock bottom, has just lost his wife, and in a real hole of booze and drugs and misery. But he’s continuing to practice therapy throughout all of this, and his patients have no idea. I was like, “Oh, this is an electric idea.”

Olsen: That’s one of the things I find really intriguing about the structure of the show and the nature of your character, is that he is both therapist and patient. And in the way that all of us are going through some stuff but then solving stuff, maybe being a sounding board for somebody else, is that something you found intriguing, the fact that even at his lowest he’s still playing these multiple roles for other people?

Segel: Well, I think that’s the secret of life, the secret of any authority figure, is that they’re just dealing with their own s— as well, and they’re just guessing. They have a badge on, whether it’s literal or metaphorical, but they’re guessing too. We’re all out here just guessing. And so that’s true of your therapist as well. They have some experience and some tools and have learned a lot, but they have rich, full lives that extend after your session ends that could be total chaos.

Olsen: Have you found that there’s anything for you that’s kind of keeping you sane right now? What do you like to do to keep it together?

Segel: I take these really long walks, like psychopath-length walks, maybe like three or four hours a day. I just walk through my town, and I have a route that I like, and I wave at all the shop owners like it’s the beginning of “Beauty and the Beast” or something, and it really keeps me calm. I listen to podcasts. I learn my lines — that’s how I learn lines for anything I’m doing. I record the scripts and then I take long walks and just listen to it compulsively until I’m not thinking about anything by the time they say action.

Olsen: I like that it both probably helps you clear your head and get focused.

Segel: I think there’s something about the body moving that allows the mind to maybe let some stuff free, like break the loop, the loop-to-loop thoughts.

Olsen: I’ve heard you talk in the past about how, [in] the period of time after you finished “How I Met Your Mother,” you felt a little lost. You weren’t sure how you felt about doing comedy; you were maybe dipping a toe into drama. With “Shrinking” in particular, the way that it combines both comedy and some more dramatic elements, is that part of what you think you were responding to, that it allowed you to do both of these things that you were interested in?

Segel: To the extent that you’re the star of your own life, to me, it felt like the end of the M. Night Shyamalan version of my life, where I was like, “Oh, it all makes sense now.” I had gotten really good at comedy and done a lot of comedies, and then I went off and tried to get good at drama and at least got to the point where I’m not afraid of it. So I had a lot of tools in my backpack. And then it’s two shows, “Winning Time” and this show, “Shrinking,” both of them allowed me to use the whole backpack, and all of a sudden I was standing across from people I really admired, and I didn’t feel like a fraud. That was a big deal to me. All of a sudden I felt like, “Now I understand.” I’m like Liam Neeson from “Taken” if he was super-sensitive. I have a unique set of skills that are I can cry really easily as a big giant man.

Olsen: Did you feel uncomfortable or like you were some kind of fraud before that?

Segel: Part of it is that I write a lot of my stuff too. I think as I moved into my 30s and was still writing the stuff that had sort of got me started in my early 20s, there was a growing gap between what I was thinking about in life and going through in life and what I was writing about and making movies about. And that started to not feel good to me. And it started to not feel like the reason why you do any of this stuff. I hate to say, “As an artist,” it always feels pretentious, but I think that as an artist, what you’re trying to do is use the art as a metaphor to explore what you are going through in life. That’s like the most vital version of art. That’s why there’s a scene in “Shrinking” Season 2 where Harrison Ford gives this speech at Thanksgiving dinner. And he talks about, “I don’t know how much longer I’m gonna be able to do this, but I can’t tell you how much it means to be surrounded by people I love, and who love me, and people I can rely on.” It’s the highest version of art because Harrison Ford is 82 years old when he’s giving that speech, and everything he is saying as Paul the character applies to how he may feel and what he may be working through as Harrison Ford at 82 years old. So you’re watching and you’re like, “Oh, this is it. This is what art is.” And I think that I’ve become more interested in that. Like, how honest am I willing to be onscreen and on paper? How vulnerable am I willing to be? How much am I willing to not try to look cool and just really explore what I’m going through?

Olsen: The tone of the show, the only way I can describe it is just saying that it’s very warm; it is a very unusual feeling that the show creates. Can you describe it? How would describe what it is the show’s going for?

Segel: The tone that it reminds me most of is “Broadcast News,” where there’s these scenes that within one scene, that breakup scene between Holly Hunter and Albert Brooks, or the confession scene, I guess you’d call it, where she says that she’s with the other guy and Albert Brooks kind of freaks out and calls him the devil. And then he said, “But I’m in love with you. How about that? I buried the lede.” And within one scene, you have all of the emotions. You have humor, heartbreak, this honest confession. I think that’s what we try to go for on the show. It’s what life feels like. In real life, you tend not to drama your way through dramatic moments. You laugh your way though. That’s how we stay alive, you know, otherwise it’s just too heavy. And so we deal with loss and grief and Parkinson’s, and all these things, with a touch of humor because I think that’s how you get through this s—.

Olsen: One of the things that I find really notable, especially in the second season of the show, is as much as the origins of the story are in Jimmy’s grief over the loss of his wife, the show has evolved into also being about this onset of grief, or an oncoming grief, with Harrison’s character knowing what’s coming for him with his Parkinson’s. I’m curious what your own experiences with grief have been and also just how everybody on the set processes those feelings.

Segel: Well, when you ask the question, what it makes me think of is, this is the amazing thing about having a friend group — is that life is coming for everyone. But the point of having a group of friends is that not everyone’s in the barrel at the same time. And so you’re there to help this friend when they’re going through their thing, and hopefully you get them into the black right when this person has their s— so that they can be helpful. It’s this beautiful give-and-take of a group of friends because life just doesn’t stop life-ing. That’s the thing I’ve been bummed to find out. You never really get to just rest in a plateau of joy. There’s always some s— happening. And so the show is honest about that too. And we found out [in] Season 1, what a gift that every cast member could be the lead in their own show. I mean, truly, there’s not a cast member on there who is not capable of holding down an A-story. And so we started doling them out. Let’s give everyone an arc and an A-story and give everyone a chance to shine.

Olsen: For you, as an actor, I don’t know how you work. Do you draw a lot from your own personal emotional experiences as you’re working on a performance?

Segel: Well, like I said, I think there’s actually a pretty finite set of emotions. So I try to be very familiar with them. So that when a scene comes up, that emotion is very easily accessible to me. I try not to overcomplicate it too much. I don’t need a wallet with my character’s fake license in it and stuff like that, but I know what it feels like to have this sense of something being taken from you and, “Where did it go?” We all experienced that during COVID, for example. All of a sudden we got to the end of COVID, and we looked back at two or three years and thought, “What the f— just happened?” It came through my life like a tsunami. And so that emotion applies to myriad circumstances. And so I think that my job is to try to just stay really aware of what things feel like.

Olsen: When the recent Emmy nominations came out, your colleagues Jessica Williams and Michael Urie both shared text messages that they exchanged with Harrison Ford. Were you texting with Harrison that day?

Segel: I was.

Olsen: And what was your exchange like?

Segel: I was glad he finally caught a break. This guy, he’s been trudging and trudging for years and years, and finally to get some recognition, it made me feel good. No, I told him I was so proud of him. I told the truth, which I think every day — it’s the honor of my life and career to act with Harrison Ford. It’s still not lost on me. We had a huge scene this year that we shot like three weeks ago, and it was a hard scene, it was long, and there were moves. The whole time leading up, it was not lost on me that I was about to do this scene with Harrison Ford. It’s just a different feeling, it’s a different feeling in prep. It’s like knowing you’re about to play one-on-one with Michael Jordan or something. It’s like, “I’m not gonna f— this up.” Every time I’m acting with Harrison, I don’t know if this will resonate with you, but I have a brain that wants to tell me I messed it up somewhere. That I turned left where I should have turned right. It’s constantly nagging at me. But when you’re standing, acting across from Harrison Ford, that voice can’t win. You’re like, “No, I think it worked out, dude. I’m right where I’m supposed to be.” More than I deserve.

Olsen: Is there anything that you feel like, in watching Harrison work, in working with him, are there moves that you’ve learned, or have you gotten some insight into why Harrison Ford is Harrison Ford?

Segel: This shouldn’t be a shock, but Harrison Ford could show up to this show kind of however he wanted. He could learn his lines on the spot. This guy cares about the material and cares about scenes, cares about his arc, cares about getting it right more than anyone I’ve seen. Certainly more than he needs to. And I think that that’s the same lesson I keep learning over and over again, whether it’s from Harrison or anyone else who I admire, or who I’m lucky enough to work with. It’s just a commitment to really caring with all your guts.

Olsen: I feel like making a TV show, there’s a lot of downtime; there’s lot of just sort of hanging around. Is it hard to not just nerd out on Harrison and be like, “Tell me about Indiana Jones, tell about the time you were a carpenter”?

Segel: Yeah, I ask him about the carpenter stuff a lot, and sometimes I ask him in earnest about, “Something’s wrong with my door at home, what am I supposed to do?” He actually sparks to life. He loves talking about it. “You’re gonna need a socket wrench for that, kid. I don’t know if you’re the guy for the job.” But no, what I talk to him more about is life stuff. I’m not … Look, he’s become my friend. How crazy is that? I ask him life questions. I ask him about marriage, and I ask him about why you choose projects, how you choose projects. Real lucky.

Olsen: Especially seeing the way he’s navigating this period of his career, is it meaningful to you to watch him specifically now?

Segel: The question of why we’re doing any of this has always been very interesting to me. And it has led me to a lot of pivots in my career and a lot of strange choices in my career. I don’t really have a sense of strategy around my career. I kind of let life be in charge. So I am really interested to see how I feel at 82 and 83 years old about why I’m still doing it, what brings me to work each day, what makes me care that much. So I’m more looking ahead. I’m excited about the idea that I could still care that much when I’m 80 years old.

Olsen: I also want to be sure to ask about your co-star, Jessica Williams. The two of you have such fantastic chemistry, and the show has gotten to this interesting place where it’s not quite the “Cheers” or “Moonlighting” will they/won’t they. It’s almost rooted more in should they/shouldn’t they and examining whether this is a good idea at all. What is it that you like about the way the show is working with the dynamic between those characters?

Segel: It’s been a really interesting dance to figure out, because you also don’t want to bust up the practice, you don’t wanna bust up the friendship, but also like our chemistry was so, is so good, in Season 1, when we had our romance arc, that you kind of couldn’t not do that storyline and see what was down that road. I think the amazing thing about acting with Jessica is that she’s capable of anything. She’s capable of all the moves. Like she can do the rom-com vibes that we explored in that. She can do rival vibes, which we kind of get into a little bit in Season 3 as Paul is considering leaving the practice. Who’s going to end up taking it over? And so what’s amazing about Jessica is it’s just like no matter what ball you throw at her, she’s going to catch it, and she’s gonna throw it back.

Olsen: How did you feel about the arc of Jimmy, your character, grappling with Jessica’s character, Gaby, having a new boyfriend? It never quite got to a jealous place, but it sort of was. And you’re very involved in the creation of the show, but how is it for you as far as your relationship to Jimmy’s feelings?

Segel: It’s a funny question because it wasn’t written in any way for him to be jealous about it. But I always think it’s more interesting to play two things. People are complicated, so for better or for worse, I try find the most unclear version of someone’s emotional feelings, because I think that’s how we are most of the time. … I think that’s definitely true of where Jimmy is. He’s just fraught and overthinking everything. There’s so much trauma and, “But what if I did just give over to something.” Well, last time you gave over to something she died in a car crash. So there’s all of these reasons he can’t give over to anything. And so, anything they throw at me, I try to play two emotions.

Olsen: It’s funny, my girlfriend grew up in South Pasadena, so I’ve like spent a lot of time in South Pasadena, all around Pasadena.

Segel: It’s the best.

Olsen: And it’s super fun to see all those locations of where you guys shoot. Do you really like shooting in that part of town and the way that the locations really are a big part of the vibe of the show?

Segel: Well, I live there. And so when Bill [Lawrence] approached me about the show, I was doing another TV show called “Winning Time” on HBO about the Lakers. And Bill was like, “I’d like to make this show together.” And I said, “Great, I would too, but I’m also doing another TV show. And I think we can work out the schedule, but I’m not going to be able to drive too far, because this is where we’re shooting the show.” So he said, “All right, we’ll shoot it where you live.” So we ended up writing the whole thing for five minutes from my house. And I also know all the locations. But I think the other thing that is cool about Pasadena is it really is distinctly not L.A. As you know, it’s like you cross the 5 Freeway and you’re kind of out of this one-industry-town vibe and you’re kind of out of the bull— and it feels a little bit more suburban. And people are walking their dogs and it’s green, and we didn’t want the show to feel too much like it was people dealing with L.A. problems, whatever that means. There’s something that feels maybe, it could be potentially superficial. People going to see therapists in L.A., I think there’s a different association with that.

Olsen: I hope this isn’t too personal, but you recently got engaged. Congratulations.

Segel: I did, yeah.

Olsen: And I saw that you actually proposed at one of my favorite places, the Huntington gardens and library.

Segel: It’s the best place in the world.

Olsen: Tell me about that. What made you want to do that there?

Segel: Well, I do a lot of thinking at the Huntington gardens. Sometimes I do my walks there. I wrote a show called “Dispatches From Elsewhere” a few years ago, and I conceived most of it walking around the Huntington gardens. It just feels calm and nice. And I pay a lot of attention to the way I feel places. And I just feel ease. I feel total ease there. And I also, I thought to get engaged someplace where, when eventually you have a kid, to be able to — like, I don’t want to have to take some brat to Paris every time I want to show him where their parents got engaged. He doesn’t deserve it. He hasn’t done anything yet, he’s just a kid. Huntington gardens for him.

Olsen: And then you get an extra visit.

Segel: That’s right. I got a membership. They say three visits pays for itself.

Olsen: You all have recently completed shooting the next season, Season 3. And I think both you and Bill Lawrence have said that Season 1 was about grief, Season 2 was about forgiveness, and now Season 3 is going to be about moving forward. Without spoiling anything, can you tell me a little bit about what that means?

Segel: I’m working on the not-spoiling-anything part. Look, I think that when you’re getting yourself out of a hole, you’re doing a bit of that healing in a cocoon, around your friends and alone in your house and with your family. Then you get to this moment where you’re like, “I think I’m better. Let’s take it for a spin out in the real world.” And oftentimes, very quickly, you find out, “Oh, I wasn’t as ready as I thought I was.” So there’s a lot of dealing with that, all the different characters in some way kind of trying to take life for a spin a little bit and realizing that it’s trickier than they anticipated.

Olsen: And it’s also been reported there have been some really exciting guest stars in this season: Michael J. Fox, Candice Bergen. Jeff Daniels is going to be playing Jimmy’s dad. What was it like for you to realize that the show had reached a place where you could pull those kind of folks into it?

Segel: It’s a really nice thing to have people who you admire and respect, idolize, come in and say that they love the show. That’s crazy to me. Michael J. Fox is an idol of mine. Getting to even tell him that is a great honor. I basically copy Jeff Daniels. A lot of what he did and does, I’ve stolen those moves, and so we get to do scenes where he’s playing my dad and our mannerisms are so uncomfortably similar. I couldn’t imagine better casting.

Olsen: Given that you co-created the show, you’re an executive producer, what does it mean to you to have it be received in the way that it has? To have the show be a success but also have it be really meaningful to people?

Segel: That’s the part that I care about the most. It seems to be really meaningful to people. I’m very lucky. I’ve done a few things along the way — like less than one hand that I can count — where people say, “This got me through this.” “This got me though this period of my life.” “This is meaningful to me and my family.” And “Shrinking,” that’s kind of all you hear when people come up. Like, the world changed and all of a sudden, people approaching you became much more about like, “Hey, you’re that guy. Can I get a selfie?” It’s totally impersonal a lot of the time. And it’s much more about proof, like, “Hey, I can show my friends this happened.” “Shrinking,” that’s actually not how people approach you. Harrison talks about the same thing. Harrison, people must want something from him for the past 40 years. It’s the first time people are like, “Hey, thank you. It helped me get through the loss of my wife, or my brother, or my sister. It’s helping me deal with my Parkinson’s,” whatever. That’s crazy. And that’s a real reason to be doing any of this.

Olsen: The idea that being vulnerable is OK, and to show that to the world and have it pay off in this way, must be really gratifying.

Segel: That’s my whole leap of faith in my personal approach to acting. It’s kind of like a surrogate-style acting. Maybe like a Jimmy Stewart or Tom Hanks or Kermit the Frog who say, “I am you.” For the next half-an-hour, or if it’s a movie, an hour-and-a-half, I’m gonna be the one who represents how we all feel. I’m not cooler than you, I’m not better than you. I’m just as awkward and sad and uncomfortable and hopeful and joyful as you and I’m confused about it all.